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When did you discover that that door could be opened with a knife?
A. After the fact that -- of Ms. Wisdom reporting to us.
Q. You never knew before that Johnny Pesina was gaining access to that cell through that lock?
A. No ma'am.
Q. How did you determine that the cell could be
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opened with a knife?
A. We looked at the door jamb, and below the hole where the lock goes in, the paint had been scraped off of it. And I had gotten down on the floor and looked at the bottom of the lock, and you could tell that there had been -- it appeared to be scratched up, like something had been scraping on it.
Q. When you do your cell checks, do you ever check the door locks?
A. No, ma'am.
Q. Do you ever check the door locks while you're on duty?
A. What do you mean by "checking the locks"? Actually walk around, open the door and lock it?
Q. Check to make sure that the door lock is working correctly?
A. No, ma'am. I didn't wander around with my knife trying to open the doors.
Mr. Nelson: I think actually her question was a little bit different than that. She's asking -- I presume she's asking you, did you check -- when you checked the cell, did you check to see if the door was locked?
The Witness: Yes, ma'am.
Questions By Ms. Lemanczyk:
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Q. Did you ever while you were employed have a policy or procedure for going and checking cell door menchanisms to make sure they were working properly?
A. No, ma'am, not that I'm aware of.
Q. You never did that yourself, check the locking mechanisms to make sure they were working properly?
A. The only way we would check it, we had to get somebody out of the cell. And the door opened and the door closed. We would take it for granted that it obviously worked.
Q. Okay.
Mr. Nelson: Also, I'm going to object to the extent that it includes facts not in evidence that the mechanism wasn't working properly because there is no evidence that the mechanism wasn't working properly. The mechanism was defeated, but there's no evidence that it was not working properly.
Ms. Lemanczyk: I think my question was, did he ever check to see if the mechanism was working --
Mr. Nelson: Properly.
Ms. Lemanczyk: Properly. And I don't believe I stated that it was or was not, but I was just asking if he ever did a check to see if the mechanism was working properly.
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The Witness: An actual check as to walk up to a door strictly to check and see if the locks were working correctly, no, we did not.
Ms. Lemanczyk: Okay.
The Witness: I did not. Excuse me.
Questions By Ms. Lemanczyk:
Q. Okay. Do you know Donna Bibby?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. She was an inmate during -- in Llano County, wasn't, she?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And while she was an inmate, her boyfriend, Quintus Ploch, was also an inmate, correct?
A. Yes, ma'am. We had a subject by the name of Quintus Ploch.
Q. And, in fact, he was the boyfriend of Donna Bibby, correct?
A. I presume they were. He didn't come in --
Mr. Nelson: Don't presume. If you know some fact or if he represented to you or somebody represented it to you, that's fine, but don't presume.
The Witness: There were numerous occasions that he had been in there, and she
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would come and visit him.
Questions By Ms. Lemancxyk:
Q. Okay. When she was not an inmate?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. But there was a time that she was an inmate at the same time that he was an inmate?
A. An inmate, yes, ma'am.
Q. And you allowed them to have contact with each other while they were incarcerated; isn't that correct?
A. No, ma'am.
Q. Did Quintus Ploch ever approach you about being able to see his girlfriend while they were both incarcerated?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And did you allow them to do that?
A. Yes, ma'am, they did have visits.
Q. They did have visits with each other?
A. Yes, ma'am, through the visitation room, not contact as far as touching in the same room.
Mr. Nelson: Just a second, please.
(Brief Interrruption)
Questions By Ms. Lemanczyk:
Q. So you're saying that you allowed them to see each other through visitation?
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A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. But they didn't have contact?
A. No, ma'am.
Q. Well, isn't true that Quintus Ploch approached you about giving you $50 and Donna would perform oral sex on you if you would allow them to see each other and have direct physical contact with each other?
A. No.
Q. You're denying that they ever -- that you ever agreed for $50 --
A. Yes.
Q. -- and oral sex to let them meet with each other?
A. Yes.
Q. You're saying that that never occurred?
A. Correct.
Ms. Lemancxyk: Actually I think one quick break and I think I want to check my notes and we're through.
(Brief Recess)
Questions By Ms. Lemanczyk:
Q. Mr. Ligon, I just have a couple of more questions for you and we can wrap this up. But isn't it true that Donna Bibby's baby was conceived while she was
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in jail?
A. I'm not aware of that.
Q. Are you aware that Sheriff Garrett questioned Donna about the time frame her baby was conceived?
A. No, I was not aware of that.
Q. Okay. Have you and your wife ever separated?
A. What do you consider separation?
Q. Well, have you two ever decided to date other people?
A. No.
Q. Have you ever moved out of your home?
A. The one that I'm living in in Llano? When I was in the Navy, I was on an aircraft carrier, and I was basically moved out of the house for six months at a time.
Q. Okay. Other than that, have you ever been moved out of that house?
A. No.
Q. Okay. So you've never been separated from your wife other than that time that you were in the military; is that correct?
A. Correct.
Q. Have you and your wife ever had marital problems due to this issue -- the issues involving around Llano County?
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A. What are you referring to as Llano County?
Q. Well, the allegations that have arisen.
A. Yes, ma'am. There have been some heated conversations.
Q. Okay. And have you two ever separated or talked about separation because of this?
A. No, ma'am.
Ms. Lemanczyk: I pass the witness.
Questions By Mr. Shaunessy:
Q. Mr. Ligon, my name is Mike Shaunessy, and I represent Llano County, Llano County Sheriff Nathan Garrett and Jailers Overstreet and Stewart. And I have some questions for you.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is it your understanding that you were required to be a certified jailer before you could be hired as a jailer by the Llano County Sheriff's Department?
A. No, sir.
Q. What is your understanding of the requirement for certification?
A. The requirements on getting the job were that you had to be certifiable, that you would be capable of
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being certified after you were hired.
Mr. Nelson: To be certified as a jailer, right? Some people might say certifiable. That's a joke anyway.
Questions By Mr. Shaunessy:
Q. Have you got Exhibit 12 handy?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. No. 3 under "Qualifications" is "Already certified by the state of capable of being certified." Is it your understanding that there's a typo there and it should read already certified by the state or capable of being certified?
A. Yes, sir. That --
Q. And you've become familiar with the TCLEOSE standards and the standards of the Texas Jail Standards Commission, correct?
A. Fairly familiar, yes, sir.
Q. And they establish a time frame within which a jailer who is hired and is not certified must become certified, correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you got certified within their required time frame, correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you maintained their -- that certification
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as a jailer in the State of Texas up until the time you were terminated, correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Prior to Johnny Pesina's becoming a trusty, were there ever any disciplinary problems with Johnny Pesina?
A. No, sir, there was not.
Q. Did you ever have any complaints by jailers, trusties or other inmates about Johnny Pesina?
A. No, sir.
Q. How would you describe Pesina as an inmate prior to his becoming a trusty?
A. He was very clean. He liked to keep his cell clean. He liked to organize. He wasn't a sloppy person by any means.
Q. Was he a well-behaved inmate?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were there any complaints from female inmates about Johnny Pesina prior to September 23, 1997 that you know of?
A. No, sir, not that I knew of.
Q. What would you have done if a female inmate had told you that Pesina had either solicited sex from her or attempted to force her to have sex with him?
Ms. Lemanczyk: Objection in
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that it calls for speculation.
Mr. Nelson: You can answer it.
The Witness: I would have passed that information on to the chief jailer.
Questions By Mr. Shaunessy:
Q. And that would have been what you were required to do, correct, under the policies of the Llano County Sheriff's Department?
A., Yes, sir.
Q. Prior to September 23, 1997, had you ever had any complaints from females or from any inmates that their cell doors were being unlocked by trusties and trusties were coming into their cells?
A. No, sir, I had not.
Q. Ever had any complaints by inmates or by anyone that the cell in which female prisoners are typically held -- that the lock was not working properly?
A. No, sir.
Q. You did not find out until after Tina Wisdom made her complaint that she had allegedly been raped by Johnny Pesina. It was not until after that time that you first learned that the women's cell door could be opened without a key, correct?
A. Correct.
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Q. To your knowledge, has any trusty at the Llano County Jail ever been allowed to deliver meals to female prisoners? And by "deliver" them, I mean actually hand them over to them.
A. No, sir. They should not.
Q. What, if any, involvement did you allow trusties to have when you were delivering food or drink to female inmates?
A. They would usually bring it to me to hand to them.
Q. You were asked about your discussion with a Mr. Jody Ryan earlier. Do you recall that?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. After you talked with Mr. Ryan, what was your understanding of his complaint regarding Pesina watching his wife or looking at his wife?
A. Mr. Pesina could have been watching her anytime during the jail, and I was unaware that he was doing it anywhere that he shouldn't have been. If -- for example, if I have to take a female prisoner from their cell in the back up to the office to use the phone or up to the front for visitation or for release and Mr. Pesina was in the kitchen or the laundry room or somewhere in between, he could have -- he could have seen her.
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Q. You do not recall Jody Ryan ever telling you that he was mad because Pesina was watching his wife while she was taking a shower?
A. No, sir. I don't recall him ever mentioning a shower.
Q. You don't recall him ever saying, "I'm upset because he's watching my wife when she's undressing or getting dressed in the women's cell"?
A. No, sir.
Q. Now, you were asked about some incidents where you allowed some inmates to dress up as or represent themselves to be DEA agents--
A. Yes, sir.
Q. -- correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And that was so they could talk to Mr. Ryan?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. If you would, tell us why you allowed that to happen.
A. When Mr. Ryan was brought in, he was under -- he appeared to be under the influence of narcotics. He was seeing stuff, hearing stuff. He had no recollection of time. I asked him to lay down, take a nap, sleep it off. In the holding cell, he was screaming and hollering at people that he thought was outside the window down on
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the streets. I asked him to lay down, take a nap, go to sleep. And he would lay down, and within just a matter of minutes, he would jump up and go back to screaming. I would tell him, you know, to lay down, and he would say that he had been asleep for hours when it had actually only been just minutes. He was screaming that he was seeing people on the street with his wife when, in fact, there was nobody outside. He had woke up quite a few people in the jail, and he had the whole jail in an uproar. They were hollering at him, screaming at him, you know, to go to sleep, to be quiet.
Q. After the imposter DEA agents came and talked to Mr. Ryan, what did Mr. Ryan do?
A. He finally calmed down enough and laid down and went to sleep.
Q. I want to go back to something. You said that Mr. Ryan was talking about seeing people down on the street; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, what cell was he in?
A. He was in the holding cell, which is located right next to the office.
Q. Is it possible from the holding cell to see down to the street?
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A. Yes, sir, it is.
Q. There's a very small window that gives you a view down to the street corner, correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And during his -- the period of time he was initially in the jail and you were holding him in the -- keeping him in the holding cell, he told you, did he not, that he saw men down on the street having sex with his wife, correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. And his wife at the time was in the Llano County Jail, wasn't she?
A. I'm not sure. I don't know if she was in the jail at that time or not. I don't believe so.
Q. Well, you looked out the window, didn't you?
A. Yes sir. And there was nobody out there for him -- but he was claiming that while he was still at his house there was people stalking him. He had -- he had made calls to 911, and it was --
Ms. Lemanczyk: I'll object to the responsiveness of the answer.
Questions By Mr. Shaunessy:
Q. In the period of time that you have worked at the Llano County Jail, you have become familiar with the symptoms or characteristics of a person who's under the
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influence of narcotics, correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Based on your experience and your training and as a certified jailer, it is your opinion that at the time Mr. Ryan was last booked into the Llano County Jail he was under the influence of narcotics; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Mr. Shaunessy: Pass the witness.
Questions By Mr. Nelson:
Q. Mr. Ligon, as you know, I'm your attorney. And I've got some brief questions for you. I want to make sure that the record is clear on something. You're not denying that on one occasion you had oral sex -- excuse me -- that Jeannie Rowley performed oral sex on you; is that correct? You're not denying that?
A. No, sir, I'm not denying that.
Q. Are you denying, though, that you ever asked Ms. Rowley to perform oral sex on you?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. So you deny that you asked her to do it. Your testimony was that she volunteered it or
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offered to perform it and you allowed it; is that right?
A. Yes, sir.
Mr. Nelson: Pass the witness.
Ms. Lemanczyk: Mr. Ligon, I have just a couple of questions.
Further Examination
Questions By Ms. Lemancyzk:
Q. You stated in your testimony to Mr. Shaunessy that you had not received any complaints about Mr. Pesina. But, in fact, you had; isn't that true?
Mr. Nelson: Hold on. I believe the question was -- and you can have it read back, but I believe his question was, did any female inmates complain to you about Johnny Pesina, I believe, was his question.
Mr. Shaunessy: That was my recollection of it.
Ms. Lemanczyk: I may be wrong, but let me clarify for the record, then.
Questions By Ms. Lemanczyk:
Q. You, in fact, did receive complaints about Johnny Pesina from inmates, correct?
A. Other inmates, yes.
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Q. Okay. In fact, we discussed about complaints you received from William Alexander and from Jody Ryan, correct?
Mr. Nelson: Wait before you answer that. I believe it misstates the testimony and the question in that at the time that Mr. Ryan talked to Mr. Ligon, if you want to characterize that as a complaint, he was not an inmate at that time.
Ms. Lemanczyk: Okay.
Mr. Nelson: He's been an inmate many times. So if you want to characterize him as a perpetual inmate, I guess you can say that.
Questions By Ms. Lemanczyk:
Q. Mr. Ligon, you received complaints from Mr. Alexander, correct?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And those complaints were about Johnny Pesina, correct?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And you received complaints from Jody Ryan, correct?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And those complaints were about Johnny Pesina, correct?
A. Yes, ma'am.
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Ms. Lemanczyk: Pass the witness.
Mr. Nelson: Just a couple of quick things so the record is clear.
Further Examination
Questions By Mr. Nelson:
Q. Can you restate for the record what types of things that Mr. Alexander complained to you about with respect to Johnny Pesina?
A. He would not be performing the job that he thought he should have been doing, "he" as in being Mr. Alexander would complain he didn't think that Johnny was doing the jobs that he should have.
Q. The work that he was supposed to be doing; is that right?
A. They were more -- Mr. Alexander seemed to be more worried about who was carrying the load in reference to the two of them.
Q. So Mr. Alexander was complaining to you that he was having to perform more work than Johnny Pesina; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did Mr. Alexander ever perform -- excuse me -- complain to you about Johnny Pesina engaging in any
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conduct -- improper conduct with respect to female inmates?
A. No, sir.
Q. Okay. With respect -- and we've just gone through this, but with respect to the conversation that you had with Jody Ryan, at the time that you had that conversation, did you understand him to be complaining to you about improper conduct, specifically viewing his wife in the shower, when he talked to you out in the parking lot?
A. No, sir.
Mr. Nelson: Pass the witness.
Mr. Shaunessy: Let me ask it --
Mr. Nelson: I went out of order, I apologize.
Mr. Shaunessy: I'll get you later.
Further Examination
Questions By Mr. Shaunessy:
Q. Did you have problems with William Alexander as a trusty?
A. Yes, sir.
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Q. Did you have problems getting William Alexander to do the jobs that were assigned to trusties within the Llano County Jail?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. Mr. Alexander felt that there were certain jobs that he was assigned to perform and that if jobs that you asked him to do didn't fall within the definition of his job responsibilities he didn't want to do them, correct?
A. Yes, sir. That is --
Q. And Mr. Alexander and Mr. Pesina often disagreed as to who was really doing what needed to be done; isn't that right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. They were not friends, correct?
A. No, sir, I don't believe so.
Q. Now, you had to deal with Mr. Alexander while he was a trusty, correct?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. And did you form an opinion as to Mr. Alexander's truthfulness?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. What is your opinion regarding Mr. Alexander's character, truthfulness?
A. Truthfulness, it was just kind of a hit and miss type thing. He had been in the pen before -- in the
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penitentiary, and he knew how to play the games and he liked to play the games. He was -- he was a con.
Q. There were times when Mr. Alexander wouldn't tell you -- strike that.
Mr. Shaunessy: Pass the witness.
Further Examination
Questions By Ms. Lemanczyk:
Q. Mr. Ligon, I think earlier we discussed that female inmates were supposed to be separated by sight and sound; is that correct?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And Mr. Ryan told you that Mr. Pesina was watching his wife, correct?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And you didn't look into it or investigate it or report it to anyone, did you?
A. No, ma'am, I did not.
Ms. Lemanczyk: No further questions.
Mr. Nelson: No further questions at this time. We'll reserve all further questions.
(Whereupon the deposition
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concluded at 1:10 o'clock p.m., Saturday, June 27, 1998)