***Publisher's Note: With rare exception, the cowardly failure of the community to financially support this publication is stunningly pitiful and selfish. Worse yet, the sickening defense and excuse of cowardice by some is appalling. If readers care so little for this community and each other, why should I? T.C.*** Page 72 Continued Q. Okay. Trusties were allowed to take trash to the dumpsters without the supervision of a jailer; is that correct? Page 73 Mr. Shaunessy: Let me object to the question unless you identify what "supervision" is. Questions Buy Ms. Lemanczyk: Q. Was there a jailer following the trusty down to the dumpster? A. No, ma'am. Q. In your definition -- in your opinion, were trusties ever supervised while they were -- they took trash to the dumpster? A. Yes, ma'am. We would watch them from the third floor on occasions. Q. On occasions you would watch them from the third floor? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Isn't it true that there was a time while Ms. Wisdom was incarcerated in the Llano County Jail that you called back on the intercom and told Johnny Pesina to get out of there and leave those girls alone? A. I don't recall the exact phrase of the word I used, but I don't believe it was "out of there." Q. Okay. What do you recall telling him? A. To get away from the door. Q. To get away from the door? A. Yes, ma'am. Page 74 Q. And what led you to say that to -- A. I could hear him over the intercom conversing with the females. Q. Okay. So you heard him over the intercom and told him to get away? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. What was Mr. Pesina doing back there? A. Talking with the females. Q. And how did he get back there to talk with the females? A. He walked, I presume. Mr. Nelson: You asked for it. Ms. Lemanczyk: I know I did. Questions By Ms. Lemanczyk: Q. Was he performing duties as a trusty at the time? A. Not that I instructed him to, no. Q. Do you know what he was doing out of the cell, then? A. He was a trusty at the time and we did not lock up the trusties. The trusties were not put back under lockdown. Q. So the trusties could roam around the jail -- Page 75 for lack of a better word, they could walk around the jail even though they were not performing a duty? A. He may have had a load of laundry going. He may have been doing different things. I mean, it's not -- I don't recall that he was supposed to be performing a certain task and was not doing it. Q. You don't recall if he was performing a certain task? A. If he had been instructed to perform a certain task, no, I do not recall. If I had told him, you know, go in the laundry room and fold laundry, I don't know if he was supposed to be there and I heard him at the women's cell. It was -- Q. Were you the only jailer on duty at that time? A. I do not recall. Q. Okay. When he was standing at the door or talking to the women, as you say, where were you? A. I was in the office. Q. In the cage? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Okay. And you heard it through the intercom? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Okay. Those intercoms, are they on 24 hours a day? A. Yes, ma'am. Page 76 Q. Do you ever shut them off? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. When do you shut them off? A. If I need to talk -- for example, if I needed to talk to the female cell and didn't want the rest of the jail to hear it, I could turn off certain sections of the jail and talk directly to them. Q. Okay. Would you turn off the intercom if a trusty was waxing the floors and it was loud? A. No. Q. Would you ever turn off the intercom because it was so loud because you could hear everybody, all the inmates? A. No, ma'am. Q. So essentially the intercoms would be on 24 hours a day? A. Yes, ma'am. Q., And you could hear everything that was going on in the cells? A. Not necessarily everything. Q. Okay. What -- to your knowledge, what types of things couldn't you hear? A. It would depend on the separate cell. I mean, if you're looking at nine cells and if -- noise from one may be drowning out the noise from another one. They all Page 77 come through one speaker. Q. Okay. Now, earlier you stated that you didn't lock up the trusties; is that correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Okay. And that includes Johnny Pesina, correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Were their cell doors ever locked? A. Were whose? Q. Were the trusties' cell doors ever locked? A. Yes, ma'am. Are you asking me if the doors were capable of being locked or -- Q. Well, I would assume that the doors were capable of being locked, were they not? A. Yes, ma'am. They were also housed in separate cells. Q. Okay. So the trusties had separate cells? A. At separate times. We wouldn't put one trusty in one cell and another one in another, no, ma'am. They would -- they may be in one cell for a little while and we may need to use that cell and we'd have to put them somewhere else. Q. Okay. Would you house the trusties together -- A. Yes, ma'am. Q., -- in the same cell? Page 78 A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And those doors were -- the door to their cell was unlocked so that they could come and go and do their duties; is that correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Okay. You and Johnny Pesina used to talk about the female inmates; isn't that correct? Mr. Shaunessy: Let me object that that question is really overbroad. Ms. Lemanczyk: Let me -- I'll just strike the question. I'll be a little more specific. Questions By Ms. Lemanczyk: Q. You and Johnny Pesina talked about Kathy Maynard, didn't you? A. Not that I can recall. Q. You never said that you thought she was good-looking? A. No, not that I can recall. Q. I don't recall if you were at Sheriff Garrett's deposition at the time -- during this time, but he had stated that Johnny Pesina needed more supervision. Would you agree that Johnny Pesina needed more supervision? Mr. Shaunessy: Let me object to the answer as mischaracterizing the prior Page 79 testimony. It's vague. Questions By Ms. Lemanczyk: Q. Would you agree that Johnny Pesina needed more supervision? A. After the fact, yes, ma'am, I would. Q. What do you mean by "after the fact"? A. After the situation that happened with Ms. Wisdom. Q. So you would agree that he had too much latitude? Mr. Shaunessy: Same objection. The Witness: Yes, ma'am. After -- after seeing what has transpired, yes. I guess the phrase, hindsight is 20/20, would -- Questions By Ms. Lemanczyk: Q. Do you agree that these incidents may have been prevented if Johnny Pesina would have been more supervised? Mr. Nelson: I'm going to object in that it calls for speculation. The Witness: I do not know if these could be prevented. Questions By Ms. Lemanczyk: Q. Do you agree that it could have reduced the Page 80 likelihood of it occurring? Mr. Nelson: I'm going to object in that it calls for speculation. The Witness: Would you repeat your question, please? Questions By Ms. Lemanczyk: Q. Do you agree that it would reduce the likelihood -- Mr. Nelson: Same objection. Questions By Ms. Lemanczyk: Q. -- Of something happening if you had -- if Johnny Pesina had been more closely supervised? A. No, ma'am, not necessarily. Q. Would you agree that Johnny Pesina should not have been made a trusty? Mr. Nelson: Objection; calls for speculation. And also there's no predicate that this witness had anything to do with the process of determining who was a trusty and who was not a trusty. Questions By Ms. Lemanczyk: Q. Do you think Johnny Pesina should have been made a trusty? Mr. Nelson: Same objection. The Witness: As I stated earlier, after seeing what has happened, no, he should Page 81 not have been. Questions By Ms. Lemanczyk: Q. Okay. Now, there's a television in the cage, correct, jailer's cage? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And that television was there at the time you were there, correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And you watched television while you were on duty, correct? Mr. Shaunessy: Let me object to that that it's overly broad and vague unless you're going to try to define a time frame. Questions By Ms. Lemanczyk: Q. Did you ever watch television while you were on duty? A. Yes, ma'am, on occasion. Q. Did you ever sleep while you were on duty? A. No, ma'am. Q. You never slept in the holding cell? A. No, ma'am. Q. Do you recall a conversation with Jody Ryan in the parking lot of the jail during which time he told you Johnny Pesina was watching his wife showering? A. Yes, ma'am. I recall a conversation with Jody, Page 82 but I do not remember the specifics. And I do not recall him stating that he was watching her in the shower. Q. Okay. What did he tell you? A. Like I said, I'm not -- I don't remember the exact conversation word for word but something to the effect that Johnny was watching his wife. Q. And you told him to take care of it himself, right? A. No, ma'am. As I recall, Mr. Ryan was rather upset about it, and I believe he stated, "Have Johnny quit watching my wife or I was going to kick his ass," something to that effect. And I believe I was referring to -- you know, the tell-him-yourself part was on the fact that Johnny -- that he was going to kick Johnny's ass. It was not on the fact that he was watching his wife. Q. Okay. Did you ever report that to Melvin Lawson? A. No, ma'am, I did not. Q. And why didn't you report that to Melvin Lawson? A. Which part are you referring to that I did? Q. About your conversation with -- A. The entire conversation? It seemed at that time that it was -- I'm not -- I'm short of words. I'm Page 83 not sure how to explain it, but Mr. Ryan was more aggravated at the fact that Johnny was watching his wife. And it just -- I just didn't report it. Q. You didn't report it to Melvin Lawson or Sheriff Garrett? A. No, ma'am. Q. Did you do anything about it? A. Not that I can recall. Q. You didn't talk to Johnny Pesina and tell him, "You shouldn't be watching these women"? A. Like I said, I can't recall if I did or didn't. Q. Do you know a gentleman by the name of William Alexander? A. Yes, ma'am, I do. Q. He was a trusty at the Llano County Jail, correct? A. Yes, ma'am, he was. Q. In fact, he told you that Johnny Pesina was watching women, too, didn't he? A. No, ma'am. I -- Q. Did he ever tell you there were problems with Johnny Pesina doing his duties as a trusty? A. A situation like that coming from that person, I believe it was more the -- saying it that way because the two didn't get along and where one of them would Page 84 think that the other one wasn't doing enough work, not carrying his load and trying to -- and referring to it in that manner. Q. What did William Alexander tell you about Johnny and his duties as a trusty? A. I can't remember exactly -- exactly what was said. Q. Did he complain to you about the fact that he was watching women or harassing the women inmates? A. No, ma'am. Q. Didn't he tell you that he was going to the cell and talking to them? A. No, ma'am. Q. You don't recall what kind of complaints he made to you? A. If it would have been something of that nature, I would have passed it on to the supervisors. Q. Well, you didn't pass it on to the supervisors when Jody Ryan talked to you; is that correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Okay. So while you were a jailer, were you still working odd jobs? A. What do you consider a job? Q. Well, earlier I think we were talking about you working for a concrete company. Did you ever do anything Page 85 like that when you were a jailer? A. The shift I was working was 7:00a.m. to 7:00p.m. I worked four days; I had four days off. On my days off, I would occasionally do day work -- type of work. There were a couple of ranchers that I would help in the county. Q. Okay. What type of day jobs? What would you do during your day job? Mr. Nelson: I think he called it day work. The Witness: It's day work. Ms. Lemanczyk: Day work. Okay. The Witness: Day work is when you go out and you work for a rancher, working cattle, that type of stuff, and you just get paid for the day. As far as a job with a schedule where I had to be somewhere else at a certain time, no, ma'am, I didn't. Questions By Ms. Lemanczyk: Q. How often would you say you were doing this ranch work? A. Maybe at the most once two to three months. Q. And then would you do it for -- you said you had four days off? A. Yes, ma'am. Page 86 Q. So would you do it for the four days off or would you just do it one day or -- A. No, ma'am. It may take one or two days. Q. Okay. A. It just depends on what all is involved. Q. Did you do day work for Jay Teddar? A. No, ma'am. Q. Did you ever help him with building anything at his house? A. No, ma'am, not that I can recall. Mr. Teddar did some work for me. Q. What type of work did he do for you? A. He did a metal cutout silhouette that I picked up from him. Q. You and Jay Teddar are friends; is that correct? A. Yes, ma'am. I guess you could call us friends. Q. Socialize outside? A. Yes, ma'am. We have socialized outside before. Q. Okay. Do you have interaction with Mr. Tedder while -- well, did you have interaction with Mr. Tedder while you were working at the Llano County Jail? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And did you do social activities with him outside of the workplace? Page 87 A. Yes, ma'am. Q. What sorts of things would you do with Mr. Tedder? A. Snake hunting. Q. Snake hunting? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Anything else? A. No, ma'am. Mr. Shaunessy: Everything probably looked pretty boring compared to snake hunting. Ms. Lemancyk: I was going to say. The Witness: We did go turkey hunting one time. Questions By Ms. Lemanczyk: Q. Out of curiosity, how do you hunt for snakes? A. You know the location of a known den, and you gas them out with gasoline and catch them. Q. With your hands? A. I have caught them with my hands, yes. Ms. Lemanczyk: I kind of got off track there. If you want to object to relevancy, go ahead. Mr. Nelson: No. I was sort of curious myself. I never said I was consistent. Page 88 Ms. Lemanczyk: Let's take another break here. Mr. Nelson: Well, we can take a lunch. Let's go off the record. (Off The Record) Questions By Ms. Lemanczyk: Q. Mr. Ligon, have you received any reprimands while you were employed with Llano County? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And what were you reprimanded for? A. I was verbally reprimanded for harassing an inmate. Mr. Nelson: Keep your voice up. The Witness: I'm sorry about that. Ms. Lemanczyk: I'm sorry. Questions By Ms. Lemanczyk: Q. You were verbally reprimanded for? A. Harassing an inmate. Q. Okay. And what occurred during that incident? A. I allowed two other inmates to talk to him. Q. Okay. And how did that constitute harassing of an inmate? A. I guess it would be the situation that had Page 89 transpired. It was -- it was just the fact that I allowed the other inmates to talk to him. Q. Okay. And what did they talk to him about? A. Drugs, narcotics. Q. Okay. Did the inmates pose as DEA agents? A. I don't know if they were posing as DEA agents, but, yes, they did put on other clothes. Q. Okay. Did they have badges? A. No, ma'am, not that I'm aware of. Q. Did you give them a baggie of white powder to take down with them when they talked to the inmate? A. No, ma'am. Q. You were present when they did this? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And you received a verbal reprimand? A. Yes, ma'am, I did. Q. And who gave you that reprimand? A. Sheriff. Q. And what did he tell you? A. That I shouldn't have done it. Q. Is that all he said? A. There was, you know, a conversation involving -- over the situation, but I'm not sure exactly, verbatim, what was said. Q. Did he tell you that you could -- that your Page 90 employment could be terminated if you had another incident like that? A. I don't remember if it was put like that. Q. Did you lose any time off of work because of that? A. No, ma'am. Q. Did they put you on administrative leave? A. No, ma'am. Q. Have you received any other reprimands? A. No, ma'am. Q. When did that incident occur? A. I'm not sure of the exact time frame. Q. Did it happen within the last year? A. I'm not real sure. Q. You have no recollection of when this could have occurred? A. No, ma'am. Q. Did you ever leave the jail floor and go down to the second floor to the dispatch area? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Did you do that when you were the only jailer on duty? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. There would be no jailers up on the jail floor at that time, correct? Page 91 A. Correct. Q. Did you try to have sex with Kathy Maynard in the blanket closet next to rec room? A. No, ma'am. Q. Did you ever ask her to engage in sexual intercourse with you? A. No, ma'am. Q. Did you ever ask her for sexual favors? A. No, ma'am. Q. Did you flirt with her? A. I would not consider it flirting, no. Q. What kind of conversations did you have with -- did you have any social conversations with Ms. Maynard while she was in jail? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And what kind of things would you talk about with Ms. Maynard? A. We talked about her daughter, how she was doing. I talked to her about how she was attempting to get out of jail, you know, as far as making the bond or taking care of matters and just stuff of that nature. Q. Did you tell her that she was pretty? A. Not that I can recall, no. Q. Were you interested in dating her? A. No, ma'am. Page 92 Q. Did you ever solicit sexual favors from Jenny Biddy? A. No, ma'am. Q. You never asked her for oral sex? A. No, ma'am. Q. Have you ever been called to testify before the grand jury? A. No, ma'am. Q. Recently the grand jury heard some matters regarding you; is that correct? A. I'm not aware of any. Q. You're not aware of a grand jury meeting regarding any of the allegations occurring at the Llano jail? A. Quite a while back, I was, yes. Q. Okay. With regard to the rape of Ms. Wisdom; is that correct? A. Yes, ma'am, I believe so. Q. Do you know if the grand jury ever met to discuss or confer about you engaging in sexual relations with an inmate? A. Yes, ma'am. I believe they did. Q. And when did they meet? A. I don't know. I cannot recall the exact date. Q. And do you know what -- the outcome of their Page 93 meeting? Mr. Nelson: You can tell her what your understanding is. The Witness: I'm not for sure, but I believe I was no-billed on the situation with Ms. Rowley. Questions By Ms. Lemanczyk: Q. Do you have any understanding as to why you were no-billed or why they decided to no-bill it? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And what is your understanding? A. It was consensual on both sides, and the date from when it occurred -- there was a new law passed that went into effect, I believe, on January 1st. And the time frame that it fell in, there was no law. Q. Okay. And was that -- which inmate was that? A. Ms. Rowley. Q. Okay. Have you -- has the grand jury ever met regarding your sexual relations with Dana Cotton? A. I'm not sure. I was not notified that they were going to or had. Q. Okay. So you don't know if they have met regarding that? A. No. Not for sure, no. Q. Has anyone discussed with you the fact that Page 94 it -- other than your attorney, has anyone discussed the fact that the grand jury may meet regarding that incident? A. I believe the Ranger had mentioned it. Q. And what did he tell you? A. That it would have to go before the grand jury. Q. And to your knowledge, that has not occurred? A. Not that I'm aware of. I have not been notified that it had happened or a date that -- when it was going to happen. Q. Okay. Nobody had ever notified you of an outcome regarding a meeting of the grand jury on that incident? A. No, ma'am. Q. Okay. Earlier you testified that you opened up the cell door to the women's cell with a knife and you tried it with a spoon and, I think you said, a butter knife, gave me some other kitchen utensils. (Continued On Ligon Deposition V5)