***Publisher's Note: With rare exception, the cowardly failure of the community to financially support this publication is stunningly pitiful and selfish. Worse yet, the sickening defense and excuse of cowardice by some is appalling. If readers care so little for this community and each other, why should I? T.C.*** United States District Court For The Western District Austin Division T.W., Plaintiff, vs. Llano County, Texas, Llano County Sheriff Nathan Garrett, in his individual and official capacities, Holland Ligon, Jailer in his individual and official capacities, John Overstreet, Jailer, in his official and individual capacites, Don Stewart, Jailer, in his individual and official capacities, and Johnny Joe Pesina, Defendants. Civil action No. 97-CA-887-SS Oral Deposition Of Holland Ligon Be it remembered that the oral deposition of Holland Ligon was reported by Lydia L. Edwards, Certified Shorthand Reporter, on June 27, 1998, at the law offices of Allison, Bass & Associates, located at 208 West 14th Street, Austin, Texas, between the times of 10:08 o'clock a.m. and 1:10 o'clock p.m., after which time the deposition was reduced to writing and set forth as follows: Page 2 Appearances For the Plaintiff: Lisa Lemanczyk - and - Lorinda Taylor Iris Jones & Associates 900 Congress Avenue Suite 200 Austin, Texas 78701 (512) 495-9709 For the Defendants, Llano County, Texas, Llano County Sheriff, John Overstreet and Don Stewart: Michael Shaunessy Bickerstaff, Heath, Smiley, Pollan, Kever & McDaniel 816 Congress Avenue Suite 1700 Austin, Texas 78701 (512) 472-8021 For the Defendant, Holland Ligon: Anthony Nelson Allison, Bass & Associates 208 West 14th Street Austin, Texas 78701 (512) 482-0701 Also Present: T.W., Ariane Chan Page 7 Holland Ligon was called as a witness for the Plaintiff and, after having been duly sworn to tell the truth, testified as follows: Examination Questions By Ms. Lemanczyk: Q. Mr. Ligon, we met during Sheriff Garrett's deposition just briefly; is that correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And have you had your deposition taken before? A. No, ma'am. Q. Okay. So you understand that you're under oath today? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And that the testimony you give today can be used at trial? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And it could be used to impeach you if your testimony is different, if you say something different on another time than what you say today? A. Yes, ma'am. Page 8 Q. Okay. The deposition, I'm going to ask questions. I'm going to give you an opportunity to answer. And I would request that you say yes or no as appropriate depending on the question rather than saying uh-huh or huh-uh because it's easier for the court reporter, okay? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Sometimes when we take depositions, we get into kind of a conversational mode. It's easy to just start talking. but if you can agree to allow me to finish my question, I'll agree to allow you to finish your answer, and that way it's also easier for court reporter. A. Okay. Q. Are you on any medications today? A. No, ma'am. Q. Okay. So is there anything that would affect your ability to give truthful testimony today? A. No, ma'am. Q. As we proceed through the deposition, if you need a break at any time, please just let me know. We'll take breaks as necessary within reason, of course. A. Yes, ma'am. Q. If I ask a question -- that's more than likely I probably will ask a question that you don't understand because I don't always phrase my questions very well. Page 9 But if you don't understand one of my questions, will you please ask me to clarify my question for you? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. If you don't ask me to clarify my question, I'll assume that you understand the question and you answered? A. Okay. Q. Okay. You understand that I represent Tina Wisdom, the Plaintiff in this case -- A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Okay. (At this time, an instrument was here marked for identification as Exhibit No. 1.) Questions By Ms. Lemanczyk: Q. I'm going to hand you what I've marked as Exhibit 1. Have you seen that document before? Mr. Shaunessy: Before we go any farther, were there any exhibits to Garrett's deposition? Ms. Lemanczyk: Were there any exhibits to Garrett's deposition? Yes, there were. Mr. Shaunessy: Then this Page 10 has to be sequentially numbered as to whatever it was in Garrett's. That's just the Western District rule. Mr. Nelson: Yeah. Ms. Lemanczyk: I don't have his deposition present at this time to know which one we left off with. The Reporter: It was 5. Ms. Lemanczyk: It was 5. So we'll just go with 6. Mr. Shaunessy: What you might do is just go with 10, and then there's going to be a gap. But at least you know you're not -- do whatever you want. Ms. Lemanczyk: That's fine. We'll just go ahead and do that anyway since I have a 1 on here. It'll be easier to make it into a 10. (At this time, Exhibit No. 1 was remarked for identification as Exhibit No. 10.) Questions By Ms. Lemanczyk: Q. Have you seen that document before? A. No, ma'am. Q. But your attorney told you that you were to appear today for your deposition today; is that correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And that was sent to your attorney -- Page 11 A. I believe so. Q. -- if you know? A. I don't know. Q. Okay. But he told you needed to appear today for your deposition, and you agreed to do that? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Okay. Mr. Ligon, where were you born? A. Homestead, Florida. Q. Okay. And what year was that? A. 1970. Q. And how long did you live in Florida? A. I don't know. I was -- my father was in the military, and that's where I was born. Q. Okay. A. I'm not sure how long I was there. Q. When did you first move to Llano? A. Approximately 1975. Q. Okay. And have you lived in Llano, then, for the rest of your -- up till now? A. With the exception of two years. I lived in Germany. Q. Are you currently married? A. Yes. Q. And how many times have you been married? A. Just this once. Page 12 Q. Okay. And are you separated at this time? A. No, ma'am. Q. And how long have you been married? A. I believe six years. Q. And what is your wife's name? A. Tamatha Lee Ligon. The Reporter: Would you spell her middle name? The Witness: L-e-e. Questions By Ms. Lemanczyk: Q. And do you have any children from that marriage? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. How many? A. One. Q. And is it a boy or a girl? A. Little girl. Q. And what is her name? A. Lauren Ray Ligon. Q. And how old is she? A. Five. Q. Do you recall what year you were married? A. I believe '92. Q. Okay. Do you have any other children? A. No, ma'am. Page 13 Q. Now, you attended Llano High School; is that correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And what year did you graduate? A. '89. Q. And did you go to college after that? A. No, ma'am. Q. Okay. Did you take any other courses -- college courses? A. No, ma'am. Q. Any certifications or trainings? A. I was in the Navy. Q. Okay. When did you enter the Navy? A. July 24th, 1990. Q. So that was about a year after you graduated from high school? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. What did you do in that year between -- A. I worked. Mr. Nelson: Let her -- make sure you let her finish her question first. Ms. Lemanczyk: Thank you. Questions By Ms. Lemanczyk: Q. What did you do for that year between graduating from high school and going into the Navy? Page 14 A. I worked. Q. Okay. And where did you work? A. Mr. Gatti's. Q. Okay. And what was your job at Mr. Gatti's? A. Cook. Q. Okay. And how long did you work at Mr. Gatti's? A. Approximately four years. Q. So you worked there while you were going to high school? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Okay. And then you entered the Navy in July of 1990; is that correct? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Okay. And what was your position in the Navy? A. I was an aerial photo interpreter. Q. Okay. What did that mean? A. I was in an F-14 squadron, which we had a camera system which we put on the bottom of the airplane. It would fly around, take pictures, and after we got it developed, I was the one that read out the film, told them what the pictures were taken of. Q. Okay. And what year did you leave the Navy? Page 15 A. 1994. Q. Okay. And so did you work in that position for the four years that you were in -- A. Yes, ma'am. Mr. Nelson: Make sure you let her finish her complete question before you answer. Lisa is like me. She puts those tails on questions. Sometimes those tails whip around and hit you. Questions By Ms. Lemanczyk: Q. So you worked at Mr. Gatti's after high school, and then you went into the Navy. And then what did you do after you got out of the Navy? A. I worked at the Hill Country Smokehouse in Burnet. Q. And what job did you do at the smokehouse? Q. I was a truck driver and a meat cutter. Q. Was it a delivery truck that you were driving? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. So you would deliver meat to different clients? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Okay. And how long did you work there? A. I got the job at the sheriff's office. Q. Okay. Where -- so Mr. Gatti's and the Navy and Page 16 the smokehouse, were those all of the things that you had done as far as employment or education or training from the time you left high school to the time you went to Llano County? A. Yes, ma'am. I believe so. There may have been some other odd jobs in between the high school time frame that I can't recall at this time. Q. Okay. So you're saying after high school you may have done some odd jobs? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Okay. When you say "odd jobs," what kind of odd jobs would you have done? A. One of them that I can recall, I worked for a concrete contractor. Q. And what did you do with the contractor? A. General labor. Q. Pouring cement? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Okay. And how long did you do that? A. That I don't recall. Q. Okay. Do you recall what year you did that? A. I believe early summer of '90. Q. So that's something you may have done for three weeks out of the summer, or how long did you perform that job? Page 17 A. I don't remember how long I worked with them. Q. Okay. Who was the contractor? A. Mike Methvin, M-e-t-h-v-i-n. Q. Okay. Any other odd jobs that you can think of that you performed during that time? A. No, ma'am, not that I can think of. Q. Okay. Now, you started at Llano County in what year as a jailer? A. I believe in '95. Q. And who hired you? A. Sheriff Garrett. Q. How did you find out about the job? A. Through word of mouth and I belive it was also in the -- advertised in the paper. Q. Okay. But you heard it from somebody that there was a position open? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Okay. And who did you hear that from? A. That I do not recall. Q. Okay. Did Sheriff Garrett approach you about the job? A. No ma'am, I don't believe so. Q. Okay. So you heard the position was open. And then what did you do? A. Went to the sheriff's office and got an Page 18 application. Q. Okay. And did you -- were you interviewed? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Who interviewed you? A. Sheriff Garrett -- Q. Okay. A. -- Mr. Lawson and Chief Deputy John Keith. Q. Okay. Did they ask you about your credentials? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And what did you tell them that you had done that you believed you were qualified to be a jailer? A. I -- I don't recall. Q. Okay. Looking back now, what do you believe qualified you to be a jailer? Mr. Nelson: Well, I'm going to object in that it assumes facts not in evidence, that there are some prerequisite qualifications to be hired as a jailer anywhere. So there's no predicate for the question. Questions By Ms. Lemanczyk: Q. You can answer the question. Mr. Nelson: You can answer it to the extent that -- The Witness: I was not aware that I had any specific qualifications that would Page 19 qualify me more for the job. Questions By Ms. Lemanczyk: Q. Okay. Do you believe you were qualified to be a jailer? A. Yes, ma'am. Mr. Nelson: Same objection. Go ahead with your answer. The Witness: Yes, ma'am. Questions By Ms. Lemanczyk: Q., Okay. And why do you believe you were qualified to be a jailer? A. I really don't know. I guess I was sane and living in Llano County. Q. Do you recall how -- obviously you got the job with Llano County as a jailer? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Do you recall how long of a time frame lapsed from the time that you interviewed with Mr. Lawson and Sheriff Garrett till the time you were offered the position? A. I believe it was approximately a week. Q. Okay. And did you start working as a jailer after you were notified you received the position? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Okay. Did you receive any training to become a Page 20 jailer? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And can you please describe that training? A. We had to take a 40-hour course, and then I had to come down here to Austin to TCLEOSE to take a jailer's certification test. Q. Do you recall when you took that test? A. No, ma'am, I do not. Q. Was it within a month after you were hired, two weeks, a year? Mr. Shaunessy: Let me object to the extent that it calls for him to guess or speculate. He's already said he doesn't know when he took the test. Questions By Ms. Lemanczyk: Q. Let me ask you this: Do you know whether it was within a month of being hired? A. It was, I believe, within six months. Q. Within six months? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Okay. It wasn't the week after you were hired, was it? A. No, ma'am. Q. Was it a month after you were hired? Mr. Nelson: I think he's Page 21 already answered the question as best as he can. Ms. Lemanczyk: Well, he said it was within six months. I'm just trying to determine if he can narrow it down to within the week or within a month. Mr. Nelson: If you can narrow it down. The Witness: No ma'am. I'm not sure. Questions By Ms. Lemanczyk: Q. Okay. Do you recall when you took the 40-hour course? A. It was over a period of time -- Q. Okay. A. -- before the test. Q. Okay. Can you tell me a little bit more about the course? Rather than me keep asking you questions, maybe you can tell me a little bit more about the course itself. Mr. Nelson: Well, actually I'm going to ask you to ask some questions. If there's specific things you want to know about, you can ask him. Questions By Ms. Lemanczyk: Page 22 Q. Okay. How many weeks was the course over? A. It was done through correspondence. Q. Okay. It was a correspondence course. Who was the correspondence course with? A. I do not recall the name of the company. Q. You don't remember who you were sending your correspondence to? A. No, ma'am. Q. Okay. Were there tests that you had to take as part of the training -- A. Yes, ma'am. Q. -- other than the one at the end? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Okay. How many tests did you have? A. I don't remember. There was one at the end of each section, but I don't recall how many sections were involved. Q. Okay. So there would be different sections. Were those sections pertaining to any specific areas of the law? A. I do not recall being pertained to the law, no. Q. Okay. What were the sections about? A. Different things involved in the jail. Q. Can you give some examples of those? A. Procedures on handling inmates. Page 23 Q. Okay. A. That's all I recall at this time. Q. Okay. What type of procedures did you learn about during this course? A. Male officers will not handle -- will not strip-search female officers -- female inmates. They would have to have a female officer to do such things as that and also on the searching of inmates, male and female, and different things on that nature. Q. Okay. do you recall any training about jail standards? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And what do you recall about that? A. There were certain questions you had to go into the jail standards book to look up. You had to use the jail standards -- I guess it's the jail standards -- to look up the answers to the questions. Q. Okay. I'm trying to get a better grasp of what this course was like. So you would get a section? Did you have materials that you would read, then, for that section? A. Yes, ma'am. There was materials within the book. Q. So you would read those materials and then take a test at the end? Page 24 A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Okay. And you could go look up the answers and refer back to the materials that you had read or the jail standards or -- A. Yes, ma'am. There were questions to be answered, and at the end of the correspondence, they sent a test that also had to be done. Q. And you could refer back to the correspondence that you had read or jail standards or whatever materials you needed in order to answer the questions? A. The questions, yes. Q. Okay. A. The test, no. Q. Okay. And when you say "the test," is that the test at the very end of the course or at the end of each section? A. I believe it was the end of the course. Q. Okay. A. There was no test at each section, but there were questions at each section. Q. Okay. That's what I'm trying to clarify. A. I don't believe it was questions on that section. And then at the end of the entire course, you had to take a test but not able to look it up, and if you pass that Page 25 test, then you go to TCLEOSE to pass their test. Q. Okay. Just to make sure I'm following you correctly, you have a section, you read the section, and then there's questions at the end of the section that you answer? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Do you mail those in to the correspondence -- as part of the correspondence course? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Okay. And then after you complete each section -- at the very end of completing all of the sections, you take a test? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. And you're not allowed to look back on any of your correspondence at that time? A. No, ma'am. Q. And then you take a test with TCLEOSE? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. So you essentially take two big tests? We'll just call them big tests for -- A. Yes, ma'am. Q. How long did it take you to complete the correspondence course? A. I don't recall, approximately six months. Q. Okay. Now, during those six months, did you Page 26 receive any other training? A. Just in-house type training. Q. Okay. When you say "in-house type training," what do you mean? A. What was involved in our jail. Q. Okay. And what training did they give you in the jail? A. Booking in prisoners, how to do it, how it was done in our jail as far as the computer, where we put their property, how we handle their money. Q. Okay. So when you say you received training on this, how did they train you to do this? A. They had to show us how. Q. Okay. Did they have a special day where you came in and they showed all the jailers how to do that? A. No, ma'am. It was just done. Q. On the job? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. Okay. So you had this training when you first started, and then you took the TCLEOSE test. Did you receive any other training -- you received in-house training? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. While you were employed at Llano County for -- from 1995 to the present, did you receive -- Page 27 Mr. Nelson: Hold on. I'm going to object that assumes facts that are in evidence when you say "to the present." Ms. Lemanczyk: Okay. Let me clarify. Questions By Ms. Lemanczyk: Q. From the time that you were employed in 1995 till the time that you no longer worked at Llano County, did you receive any other training other than the correspondence course or the in-house training? A. No, ma'am. I didn't. Q. Okay. So you never received any training about how to handle female inmates other than what you were trained on in the correspondence course? A. And in the in-house. Q. Okay. What did they teach you or train you on in how to handle female inmates? A. They were to be locked up in separate cells, supposed to be kept divided by sight and sound. And we were supposed to keep them away from male inmates and keep the male inmates away from them. Q. And was this another in-house training? A. Yes, ma'am. (Continued On Ligon Deposition V2)